Kurt Messick's blog
rating system
05:21 PM on Jun 05, 2008

I noticed that certain events require a minimum driver rating in order to register. I also noticed that a driver who only had one race in a specific type of racing event who finished 10th out of 15 cars had a much higher rating than another driver who had over 20 races in the same type of event with higher and lower places, but with much more experience. Yet the driver with only one race can register for an event and the more experience driver can not because his rating is too low. What is the rationale for that?




Posted by Tim McArthur at 06:01 PM on Jun 05, 2008
Comment #1

Rank (at least rolling rank) is based off the finishing order (compared to others) of the previous 12 races. If only one or two races have been ran, the rolling rank is still calculated from those one or two. Pretty much that simple.

Posted by Kurt Messick at 10:10 PM on Jun 05, 2008
Comment #2

Tim, you simply repeated that I said. My question is a person with one race experience can register for an event that another person with over 20 races cant register. What is the rationale with that?

Posted by Tim McArthur at 11:04 PM on Jun 05, 2008
Comment #3

Rank does not equal experience. Rank = finishing positions compared to size of field, which loosely translates to "skill". A rank-restricted series is intended for those that are of a higher skill level (same applies in reverse for Novice events) not "greater experience". So, 1 race or 100 races, the rank will determine the "skill" of the driver on an averaging system.

Also the rank restricted events have a cap or a bottom amount of rank that can be earned which is normally 0 - 10. But, if there is a rank restriction of "max 5" on an event, not only does that prevent an 5+ drivers from participating, it also means the winner of that race will earn 5-rank max. Again, the same applies in reverse; If there is a "min 3" rank event, the last place finisher will receive a minimum of 3-rank. This prevents all but the most extreme cases of accidentally ranking yourself out of a series due to a few DNFs or Wins. You would need to consistently DNF or Win to find yourself restricted out of those events. But, that is also the reason why you might see a low finish in a 3+ restricted race earn more rank then a mid-packer of non-rank restricted events, or potentially even more then a podium in a 5- ranked event.

This probably confuses the matter even worse... right? But, I can assure you, the rank calculations and how they are used are very well thought out. We spent a lot of time and number crunching to create an accurate rank system without the poofy stuff seen in other systems. It is quite simple in one hand, but can get very complicated on the other. Usually, the more I try to explain it to someone that was not in the process of designing it, the more confused they become. It is one reason we do not bother to explain it very often.

Posted by Kurt Messick at 01:43 PM on Jun 06, 2008
Comment #4

I ran a shoot out race with only 8 cars. Every driver was rated higher and had more experience than I. I finished last, but drove a respectable/clean race. I gained in experience and skill, but was down-rated after that race. That tells me to stay away from races with small fields of cars. Had there been more drivers, I would have finshed somewhere in the middle of the pack and therefore gained a higher rating. In either senario, my driving was the same.

Posted by Tim McArthur at 01:59 PM on Jun 06, 2008
Comment #5

Yea this discussion has taken place in the past, about smaller fields vs larger fields. You actually have a higher chance of scoring LESS rank in a larger field then you do in the smaller ones. Either case though, last = last (minimal rank points awarded), doesn't matter if it is 5 cars of 50 car field. You need not worry about the field size as much as you need worry about you finishing the race (DNFs are very bad) and place as best you can within your ability.

Your rank has nothing to do with your competitor's rank. That is the watered-down stuff that we do not incorporate into our systems. Your rank is based solely on your finishes, just like the real world.

Posted by Kent Welker at 03:56 PM on Jun 06, 2008
Comment #6

Kurt, don't race for the rank. It is basically a list of general ability against the masses, but it is not entirely acurate in the fact that a lot of the drivers ranking incluse races where they drove with restricted cars. While most of us check the rankings occasionally it isn't really what we are here for which of course is to race in well oganized events with drivers of similar ability. :)

Posted by Kurt Messick at 08:16 PM on Jun 06, 2008
Comment #7

I am not racing for rank, but some events have a minimum rank before a driver can enter the race. I found myself not meeting that minimum after two last place finishes with small fields. With my skill and experience, I know that I could run in that event. I dont care about rank unless it keeps me from racing.

Posted by Kris Trott at 10:00 PM on Jun 06, 2008
Comment #8

I was a big fan of the online ranking system in V8 Supercars 2 (Race Driver 2).
Everyone started with a rank of say 500, if you won it went up, if you lost it went down. But more importantly each result was based on the skill of the opposition. Effectively you could finish mid pack and recieve more rank points than the leader if all the other cars were a higher rank than you. It all depended on what rank you beat and what rank beat you etc. It was good mainly to stop higher ranked drivers just joined lower ranked races and blasting away, in this scenario the higher ranked driver would recieve very little towards his ranking. Anyone ranked in the 900's was considered a member of the "VFG" club (the first word is 'very', and the last is 'good')
I am in no way suggesting a change for R2P's system, as I am happy enough with how it is scored, just voicing my opinion on a system that also worked well for its purpose.

Posted by Jonty Couples at 10:27 PM on Jun 06, 2008
Comment #9

There's still a human organizing the event Kurt, so just ask if you can be let in.

Posted by Dan Ortega at 10:42 PM on Jun 06, 2008
Comment #10

As Jonty suggests, Tim is very good about that.


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